Curse

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 12:25 PM // 12:25

The biggest issue in lore when thinking of magic is and physics is how the two interact. Most that give their opinion think that physics are in place except where magic comes into play. This is incorrect.

I. Physics

Sorry, but I need to turn this into a physics class for a bit, if you feel you know enough, feel free to skip to part II. If not, I’ll try to keep this simple and short.

First, we only focus on one thing with Physics here: Energy. And there is one undeniable rule – even in religion – that exists: Energy cannot turn into “nothing,” and likewise, “nothing” cannot turn into energy (or “something”). Kinetic Energy (i.e., movement, actions) turns into Potential Energy (lack of movement), and vice versa. In a perfect simulation, you could have a ball swinging back and forth on a rope forever. But energy has other outputs – heat and sound are the two biggest.

Heat is constant, transferring from one object to another, one molecule to another. If cold molecules touch hot molecules, the heat transfers over. This is why a seat is warm after you sit in it for a long time.

Sound is irrelevant to this to be honest, so I’ll leave it out.

There are multiple sources of energy, each source getting energy from something else – an endless cycle. No origin, no end (this is where Monotheism fails in logic and points its finger at “God”)

If you get that, it should be enough. If you don’t get the sound, that’s fine, this is just to make things easier.

II. Energy

Now then, we go to energy, the most important thing when wanting to do just about anything. In most games, energy is split into two things: “Mana” and “Stamina” – that’s all fine and dandy, but due to game mechanics, GW forgets about stamina (some can argue that it is replaced with adrenaline – well, kind of) and simply calls mana energy. For the sake simplicity, we’ll call the blue bar “mana.”

Now, you’ll all know, I’m sure, that when you use magic or a skill of any kind they need energy or adrenaline. Now, in the case of adrenaline (and stamina), that is the energy for movement and movement alone. “Mana” on the other hand is used for both movement (stances, traps, attack skills, and some “skill”s) and magic (spells and some “skill”s).

You notice, as you use “mana” it decreases immediately, but it slowly regains constantly. This is just game mechanic, in lore, it would act the same as health does in game mechanics. Initially not moving, but after a while, slowly gains up (as one rests).

III. Basic Magic

Now, we all know magic right? It’s that thing that makes objects float, bursts things on fire, or freezes things, and does a whole bunch of other things. The actual source of this is unknown, but believed to be the Mists. But that’s for later.

Anyways, we go to the basics of magic. You’re probably wondering why I had that short little physics lesson. Well, here we go:

If you want something to levitate, you need to add more potential energy, in order to get that potential energy, the kinetic energy must come from somewhere – which would be your own energy or more specifically, one’s “mana.” For it to keep floating, energy would have to be constantly used as long as there is no support. Which is why when you see a person levitating something, it is not long lasting (usually).

In the case of say, freezing or burning something, you are changing the amount of heat. This means you are speeding up the process of the heat passing to something else. For freezing, this is easy. But for burning, you need to create the fire as well. Well, pyromancy or pyrokinesis is just a complex form of telemancy or telekinesis (some will say they are the same thing, both caused by the “mind” – but this goes far out of lore and into debating on psionics, which, to be honest, would be the “modern” form of magic). Creating fire would be done by re-arranging the very atoms and molecules within the air. Similarly, this can be done to create just about any object or substance from fire and ice, to lightning and soil (no matter the hardness or type).

Thus, the Elementalist is easily explained. Monks (and Restoration Ritualists) are just as easy to explain. Through the manipulation of objects, one can create flesh by, once more, moving and changing atoms and molecules.

IV. Intermediate Magic

Then we get to the harder to explain magic: Curses, Illusions, and Summons (a.k.a. teleportation).

Let us focus on illusions. By theory, they are the tempering of the mind. However, in practice, they can also be seen as the tempering of the very nerves of the human body. When you touch, smell, taste, hear, or see something (basically, when your senses register something), they go through nerves. If the nerves were affected, your senses would be changed. If magic can change the very molecules and atoms, what stops them from changing and affecting the chemicals that are released by nerves to trick the mind? Nothing, as long as the affecter has the energy.

As for “domination magic” and curses (and some other necrotic spells), these two, which inflict direct pain onto the user – sometimes in the form of conditions - is he exact opposite of healing by a Monk. Where one side creates flesh, the other removes flesh, changing its substance into something else – possibly something painful, or something which has no harm to others.

Then we possibly get the most annoying of the magic: Holy, Chaos, and Dark. Well, maybe not that annoying. Just like the elements, these types of magical damage are just a different “substance” – though one which does not exist in reality (as far as humans know). One may simply be able to categorize them as fifth, sixth, and seventh elements, or as atomic substances used in extremely large scale. The annoyance of them is due to them being completely fictitious to reality, and thus cannot be explained in any other way aside from another “new” substance or direct acts of some “dues ex machina” affect.

Then, the last magic (if I missed any, let me know and I’ll update the thread – don’t think I did though) would be “summoning” or “teleportation” such as a Ritualist summoning spirits, or traveling through a portal. The answer is just simply stolen from “scientific theory” – the “demolecorization” and “remolecorization” of people or substances. That is, for teleportation through different planes of existence.

One could argue that self-teleportation would just be moving at an extremely fast speed (this would actually be correct in all teleportation, but teleportation which requires going through and not around other things would mean the above).

Now, I know I’ll get yelled at this with “that’s science fiction!” or something if I don’t say now: If you truly think about it, science and magic achieve the same thing, the same actions, but through difference sources of energy. When you get down to the very basics, wouldn’t a flame thrower be changing gasoline and oxygen into fire – and say “immolation” would be changing air into fire? Same actions and outcomes but there are different methods and/or sources of energy for the actions and outcomes.

V. Magical Objects

Prime example of a magical object would be signets – which are symbols, usually engraved into rings. But all of these are easily explained. The objects, much like a body, are just a catalyst of holding in magic, and thus energy. There are two things which differentiate objects from living creatures for use of holding energy:

They do not exert energy until tapped by another source, so the amount of magic never diminishes, and would be seen as the most ample source of storing magic. Though, living beings can, while using energy, also gain energy to replace the used energy – and possibly even increase the amount of energy within them.
Depending on the substance, they could hold more or less than a living creature of the same size. Throughout references in magic, one kind of substance stands out in “magical conductivity” than all others: reflective substances. This can be water, ice, crystals, glass, anything with a true reflection (this means, if you polish something, it won’t be any more conductive for magic). This appears to be the case in Guild Wars as well (to some degree), as shown in Gmr Leon’s research and through various dialogues, such as from Vekk in the “At the Bloodstone” cinematic during the “Finding the Bloodstone” mission – where he says a crystal is safer than a jar to extract and store magic.

Do note that the bloodstones would be considered objects which contain a vast amount of magic – which also disperse the magic into the surrounding area. The bloodstones, having to limit the amount of magic used in the whole world of Tyria, would most likely be enchanted to continuously draw in magic, but in effect, it would also have to disperse it. Originally, the magic was dispersed into lava and the Ring of Fire Island Chain, but eventually went into the areas which the bloodstones landed. Why lava? Why the water in the Maguuma? It is because they conduct magic more than other substances in the area. The believed-to-be Aggression bloodstone in Bloodstone caves’ magic goes into the air (so it seems) and then into creatures. This is another instance of magic not just “disappearing.” The Maguuma Bloodstone sends magic into the soul batteries and into the water, which is constantly traveling, feeding creatures and plants alike. Eventually the water (should) reach the sea and disperse to such a wide amount of area it has little affect, thus effectively dispersing energy without “using” it or making it “disappear.” The Ring of Fire bloodstone’s magic goes into keeping the Door of Komalie sealed, which repels things from going through on either side (also the “jade” floats there, also a constant use of potential energy) thus using up the energy and it not just disappearing (floating objects and forcing creatures back ->energy to movement).

Thus, the only known object to constantly absorb magic, also constantly dispersed magic.

VI. Otherworldy Things

Other things which are hard to explain with the use would be things like alternate dimensions (prime example: the Rift and Mists) and incorporeal creatures (prime example: Spirits).

Some would say, due to the closeness of the Rift to the Mists (which is disputed to be the source of magic) that it would have less to do with physics than anywhere else. Again, this is wrong. Magic can only add onto physics, not change it. However, due to the closeness (or being in the very location of) the “source” of magic and life, it would appear that physics hold little grasp on these locations. All it really means, is that more can be done through magic, nothing more.

Spirits, to keep things simple, would be made of a different kind of molecule (that is, as different sulfur is from oxygen), and a kind of “distance” between the atoms that puts the substance between liquid and solid, a “non-solid solid” if you will. In that, if focused, it can interact with solids, but can also go “through” solids (or more specifically, solids can go through it), but no matter what keeps a semi-definite shape. A “semi-definite” shape meaning that, while the shape can change a little, it would, generally, stay the same shape. Similar to a water-balloon – you can squeeze it, changing its shape, but it usually returns to how it originally was.

The Mists, the supposed source of magic, also needs to gain energy from a source. This source would be spirits. As I stated in my old Spirits theory, I believe spirits to get sent to the Rift (the afterlife as some may say) when "killed" in other realms (living realms, as one may call them), and when killed in the Rift, they particles of the soul would return to the Mists, giving the Mists energy to spend to other things, such as new life, and magic.

Do Note: I am not saying all this is fact, but my explanation (thus theory) for how magic and physics do co-exist. And yes, the last portion is more of a hypothesis. While writing this, I got another theory to add onto the use of magic, but that is off-topic from this.

I have a feeling where I started to ramble at some points, sorry bout that, wrote this when it came to my mind (didn’t want to forget) which was at five in the morning.

Killamus · Aug 02, 2009, 01:49 PM // 13:49

I think you're trying to apply logic to something that only follows the logic of whatever the programmer can do.

I also think that you did a decent job, but I'll surmise what you said in two sentences: "In order for magic to exist, the energy has to come from somewhere; I.E. yourself. Magic is little more then learning how to control energy."

I'm also pretty sure that a lot of other people have come to this conclusion as well. Gj though

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

I think you're trying to apply logic to something that only follows the logic of whatever the programmer can do.

Like I said at the end of the teleportation portion: if you think about it, magic is just a replacement of science in doing something. Thus it would also be the case in reality, opening the possibility for magic to eventually (or once in the past) existing. This is actually where I got this theory from, while thinking on a book I'm hoping to start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

I also think that you did a decent job, but I'll surmise what you said in two sentences: "In order for magic to exist, the energy has to come from somewhere; I.E. yourself. Magic is little more then learning how to control energy."

Though unsupported, yes, what I said can be shortened to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

I'm also pretty sure that a lot of other people have come to this conclusion as well. Gj though

There is no new idea, however, this idea was also never posted for GW lore, and the only (and sadly common for those from GWO) version of physics and magic in GW which has been posted is that the laws of physics exist in GW except for the case of magic. Which I was basically proving was incorrect.

Archress Shayleigh · Aug 02, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Killamus is correct IMHO. But he did what u did in 2 sentences. Very good job though. I like reading your theories.

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

If people think this was overthinking, just wait until the physicist gets time to really get stuck in...

In the meantime, though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

II. Energy

Now then, we go to energy, the most important thing when wanting to do just about anything. In most games, energy is split into two things: “Mana” and “Stamina” – that’s all fine and dandy, but due to game mechanics, GW forgets about stamina (some can argue that it is replaced with adrenaline – well, kind of) and simply calls mana energy. For the sake simplicity, we’ll call the blue bar “mana.”

Now, you’ll all know, I’m sure, that when you use magic or a skill of any kind they need energy or adrenaline. Now, in the case of adrenaline (and stamina), that is the energy for movement and movement alone. “Mana” on the other hand is used for both movement (stances, traps, attack skills, and some “skill”s) and magic (spells and some “skill”s).

You notice, as you use “mana” it decreases immediately, but it slowly regains constantly. This is just game mechanic, in lore, it would act the same as health does in game mechanics. Initially not moving, but after a while, slowly gains up (as one rests).

I've generally thought of the blue energy bar as representing stamina as well as mana. Stamina is something that gets drained as actions are performed, while adrenaline is the excitement that builds up in combat and allows impressive feats to be performed DESPITE being tired. This explains, firstly, why energy is still used for skills that don't appear to be magical in nature, and secondly gives a simple reason for why heavier armours reduce the size and rate of regeneration of the energy pool (heavy armour is tiring to wear and harder to relax in, and this someone wearing heavier armour will tire out faster and take longer to recover, all else being equal). Thought of this way, the energy pool may not represent magical energy directly, but instead represent how much the concentration and physical activity of spellcasting tires the spellcaster, as well as the possibly tiring effect of channeling magic energy through their body while casting the spell.

This then raises the question of how certain skills like, say, Energy Tap work if energy is simply stamina. One possible explanation is that, by and large, magical energy and physical stamina are equivalent - a living person's body creates a certain amount of energy that can be used either for physical activity (non-magical skills like for most Warriors) or channeled instead towards magic. Alternatively, it could simply be related to lifesteal effects, draining from the target's stamina reserves instead of whatever it is that lifesteals actually drain.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Just to note, this is actually part one of a theory, as I stated/implied at the end. I got another piece which is not so "commonly thought of." Also, while the theory may be "stated in 2 sentences" - it is also better off if supported.

I am sure if I said it the same way Killamus did in the beginning, then I'd be asked to explain. It's a curse really, if you start simplified, you're asked to explain, if you start fully explained, you're criticized or someone simply comments that it could just be said in a more simplified manner, which everyone then agrees with the simplification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I've generally thought of the blue energy bar as representing stamina as well as mana. Stamina is something that gets drained as actions are performed, while adrenaline is the excitement that builds up in combat and allows impressive feats to be performed DESPITE being tired. This explains, firstly, why energy is still used for skills that don't appear to be magical in nature, and secondly gives a simple reason for why heavier armours reduce the size and rate of regeneration of the energy pool (heavy armour is tiring to wear and harder to relax in, and this someone wearing heavier armour will tire out faster and take longer to recover, all else being equal). Thought of this way, the energy pool may not represent magical energy directly, but instead represent how much the concentration and physical activity of spellcasting tires the spellcaster, as well as the possibly tiring effect of channeling magic energy through their body while casting the spell.

For the bar being stamina and mana, I would think that too, except for one thing: Stamina decreases during movement (usually faster movement). You can run are a decent speed and the bar never goes down. If it included stamina, then at least a pip would be removed.

Of course, I didn't intend to link the energy bar to just mana, but mana and "normal" energy - which would normally go into stamina as well, I suppose. So the argument can go both ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

This then raises the question of how certain skills like, say, Energy Tap work if energy is simply stamina. One possible explanation is that, by and large, magical energy and physical stamina are equivalent - a living person's body creates a certain amount of energy that can be used either for physical activity (non-magical skills like for most Warriors) or channeled instead towards magic. Alternatively, it could simply be related to lifesteal effects, draining from the target's stamina reserves instead of whatever it is that lifesteals actually drain.

This, mainly, is why I focused the bar to be more towards mana, instead of just stamina or the combination. Though it would have some stamina characteristics, due mainly to game mechanics and not lore, it acts more as mana than stamina.

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

For the bar being stamina and mana, I would think that too, except for one thing: Stamina decreases during movement (usually faster movement). You can run are a decent speed and the bar never goes down. If it included stamina, then at least a pip would be removed.

However, running faster than the 'normal' run without external aid does cost either energy (Sprint, for instance), adrenaline (Rush). It could be that the characters are simply fit enough that they can jog for long periods without noticeably tiring, and this jog is the default movement speed.

Of course, once you bring individual skills into it, things do become exponentially more complicated (especially non-magical ones like "Charge!"). I think they can be explained on a case-by-case basis, but, well, that's a lot of cases. Another alternative is to fall back to the concept that there's a certain amount of magic that can be tapped into without formal training, and skills like "Charge!" are in fact at least partially magical in effect despite coming from an apparently non-magical profession.

(Which, as well as bringing us back around to a direct equivalency of energy and magic, would also help key in to how the Bloodstones might prevent a character from tripleclassing (or more) by adding "nonmagical" professions to the two magical ones that the Bloodstones allow...)

Shewmake · Aug 02, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Nothing that occurs in a universe defies logic, as it's all part of a code (which is examined by science).

Physics is science, and therefore, it's just an understanding of these natural laws. Again, nothing can defy these natural laws. It can be written into the code and flow along with the laws, but it can't defy the laws.

In GW's case, magic is written into the laws.

Like you said, "Magic can only add onto physics, not change it."

That was a very interesting read!

I think the closest the real world can get to that is the Tibetan monks; they can increase their body temperature through meditation.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 02, 2009, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Great work Konig! I really liked the way you explained and combined magic and energy. Although, I have some thoughts that I would like to discuss.

Magic was not a natural thing in Tyria. It was Abaddon who incautiously and freely gave it to the sentient races of Tyria. Aside from it's nature (destruction, aggression, preservation and denial) we don't know too much about it. It seems the gods and the Ancient Dragons used it before. (Primordus bleeds magic.)

We know nothing about Magic in the reality aside from fantasy. So if it really exists, then perhaps the physical laws don't even apply to it, like the case with black holes.

I would consider magic as radiation instead of energy. Of course, radiation comes with energy emission and absorbance: a body emits energy that travels through space until it is absorbed by another body. It would be the case with several magical objects and places: Mouth of Torment (Abaddon's corrupt power is flowing out from such tear in the reality), the bloodstones and creatures with incredible amount of Magic/power (like Primordus). And this could somehow explain how the Riders collect/harness/absorb magic.

I absolutely agree with Draxynnic's posts. There are some skills (like Troll Unguent, Endure Pain and Defy Pain) which don't even belong to the magical skills. The two warrior skills use stamina and the bodies' endurance ability to last longer on the battlefield. I don't know what's the trick in Troll Unguent that uses energy.

And my last thought is your question about Magic: is it infinite or not?
I would think that it is. In the case of the Ancient Dragons it seems that they have some kind of connection to the Mists. When they use magic they consume some of their powers. After this their draw more power from the Mists, to fully regain their former self.
And thus, I would think that the Mists and the Universe are infinte->infinite amount of power/magic

I didn't want to undermine your theory, these are only my thoughts about this topic.

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

We know nothing about Magic in the reality aside from fantasy. So if it really exists, then perhaps the physical laws don't even apply to it, like the case with black holes.

Nitpick!

While it's a common meme that the laws of physics break down in a black hole, that's actually, to use Science of Discworld terminology, a lie-to-children. The laws of physics do apply, it's just a subset of the laws of physics that we haven't worked out yet. (Specifically, the point where quantum mechanics and general relativity intersect - the two theories are incompatible. Resolving this is one of the holy grails of modern physics.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I absolutely agree with Draxynnic's posts. There are some skills (like Troll Unguent, Endure Pain and Defy Pain) which don't even belong to the magical skills. The two warrior skills use stamina and the bodies' endurance ability to last longer on the battlefield. I don't know what's the trick in Troll Unguent that uses energy.

Ranger skills are actually one of the serious flies in the ointment of any study like this. Paragons do have some tie to magic even if it isn't in the form of spellcasting, Assassins actually use spells, and Warriors have the Charles Atlas Superpower if nothing else - but a lot of Ranger skills are largely based around the idea that the Ranger brings along a bunch of special arrows and supplies that are then used in various skills. Realistically, the likes of Poison Arrow, Flame Trap and Troll Ungeunt should be limited to a number of uses per instance according to how much of each can be carried, but (probably for balance) ANet resorted to energy instead.

One pet theory I have regarding this is that Rangers are actually to Ritualists as Assassins are to Mesmers and/or Necromancers, and as Dervishes are to Monks and/or Elementalists - a hybrid between physical combat and a specialised form of the magic of the full spellcasting profession. This theory is supported in part by the fact that they both share spirits (although those of Rangers come from nature rather than the afterlife) - it's possible that traps may simply be the Ranger equivalent of an attack spirit rather than mechanical traps, and the more supernatural Ranger attacks are actually a specialised form of weapon spell.

Gmr Leon · Aug 02, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Most that give their opinion think that physics are in place except where magic comes into play. This is incorrect.

By your opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If you want something to levitate, you need to add more potential energy, in order to get that potential energy, the kinetic energy must come from somewhere – which would be your own energy or more specifically, one’s “mana.” For it to keep floating, energy would have to be constantly used as long as there is no support.

Another way would be to have materials that have a lower density than the air, as shown by certain gases in balloons. If you just want it to float in place, it'd probably need to be a certain density, so that it will float, while not floating beyond into the sky. That aside, the problem isn't so much that it's impossible, it's that in the instances seen in Tyria there isn't anything supporting the floating structures, but there they are, floating, without any semblance of an obvious energy source in constant use, or constantly supplying the floating structures.

Which begs the question of, where is the energy coming from? Even my theory on water's magical conductivity doesn't completely explain this. Sure, when the water's falling the particles are excited, possibly irradiating the surrounding area with magical energy causing the stones to float, thus giving it a possible magical energy source. The problem, of course, being that there isn't a waterfall in sight around the Wizard's Tower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Creating fire would be done by re-arranging the very atoms and molecules within the air.

Er..Last I checked, it would just be by raising the kinetic energy of the atoms and molecules. As temperature in general is just the average kinetic energy of atoms and molecules within an object. In reducing the kinetic energy, an object becomes cooler, and in increasing, it becomes hotter. Unless you're meaning rearranging the atoms and molecules within the air to make a more flammable, and thus easier to ignite, gas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Through the manipulation of objects, one can create flesh by, once more, moving and changing atoms and molecules.

Ignoring the fact that moving and changing atoms in such a way isn't that easy at all. One of those key reasons magic is admired or desired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Then, the last magic (if I missed any, let me know and I’ll update the thread – don’t think I did though) would be “summoning” or “teleportation” such as a Ritualist summoning spirits, or traveling through a portal. The answer is just simply stolen from “scientific theory” – the “demolecorization” and “remolecorization” of people or substances. That is, for teleportation through different planes of existence.

Except that we don't see anything or hear anything that suggests this. It just appears to be like walking through a doorway, in most instances. You'd think they'd take the opportunity for Vekk to mention that as a joke towards the player, "By the way, you were just torn to pieces and reassembled as you went through that gate." Alas, missed opportunities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

There are two things which differentiate objects from living creatures for use of holding energy:

They do not exert energy until tapped by another source, so the amount of magic never diminishes, and would be seen as the most ample source of storing magic.

Which almost seems to be the deal with the Ancient Dragons, at least in the case of Drakkar. As it did not exert any energy until it was tapped into by another source, Svanir.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

and possibly even increase the amount of energy within them.

As in the case of the mortal-to-God/Goddess transition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Some would say, due to the closeness of the Rift to the Mists (which is disputed to be the source of magic) that it would have less to do with physics than anywhere else. Again, this is wrong. Magic can only add onto physics, not change it. However, due to the closeness (or being in the very location of) the “source” of magic and life, it would appear that physics hold little grasp on these locations. All it really means, is that more can be done through magic, nothing more.

Hm..Just joking around here, but by that logic, we could do more through physics if we got closer to a black hole..Black holes, a physicists' playground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Spirits, to keep things simple, would be made of a different kind of molecule (that is, as different sulfur is from oxygen), and a kind of “distance” between the atoms that puts the substance between liquid and solid, a “non-solid solid” if you will. In that, if focused, it can interact with solids, but can also go “through” solids (or more specifically, solids can go through it), but no matter what keeps a semi-definite shape. A “semi-definite” shape meaning that, while the shape can change a little, it would, generally, stay the same shape. Similar to a water-balloon – you can squeeze it, changing its shape, but it usually returns to how it originally was.

I think the word you're looking for is plasma. That's the best word to describe their matter. It's not exactly a liquid, nor a gas, but a weird sort of solid-liquid mixture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

While it's a common meme that the laws of physics break down in a black hole, that's actually, to use Science of Discworld terminology, a lie-to-children. The laws of physics do apply, it's just a subset of the laws of physics that we haven't worked out yet. (Specifically, the point where quantum mechanics and general relativity intersect - the two theories are incompatible. Resolving this is one of the holy grails of modern physics.)

Bah, I wanted to nitpick that nit!

Note: I'm not a physicist, but I like to think I could be classified as a scientist, thus, while I'll argue some absurd things, it's the absurd things that can be the best arguments. Quantum mechanics is an excellent example of weird, strange, nearly absurd to some, science, that, despite this, proves a viable means to explaining aspects of our universe. Absurdity in the name of science is the best kind, I think.

Eliz Genevieve · Aug 02, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

I simply just don't understand a thing about physics and/or science, so I'll leave my speculations out of this.
Aside that, you explained it well, and I agree with all Draxynnic 'add-ons' to the thread.
Great theory to how the whole magic thing would work out.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shewmake

I think the closest the real world can get to that is the Tibetan monks; they can increase their body temperature through meditation.

Off-topic: Actually, every and any concept of magic throughout fiction and history can be linked into two different types of magic: "Physical Magic" and "Mental Magic" - physical being something you can see, mental being something like telepathy. And this can be related to Physical easily. But past this goes into the second part of my theory, so I'll stop here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Magic was not a natural thing in Tyria. It was Abaddon who incautiously and freely gave it to the sentient races of Tyria. Aside from it's nature (destruction, aggression, preservation and denial) we don't know too much about it. It seems the gods and the Ancient Dragons used it before. (Primordus bleeds magic.)

Magic may not be natural to tyria, but it is natural to the universe. Everything in magic we see does not defy rules of physics, just adds onto it and appears to defy this. Why the Ancient Dragons have a large amount of magical ability goes to my second theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

We know nothing about Magic in the reality aside from fantasy. So if it really exists, then perhaps the physical laws don't even apply to it, like the case with black holes.

Actually, physics can be put into black holes as well, and is (draxynnic could tell more, even if we stay out of quantum science). Though that is off-topic. And magic does have an existence in non-fiction in reality as well, under the name of psionics: psychic abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I would consider magic as radiation instead of energy. Of course, radiation comes with energy emission and absorbance: a body emits energy that travels through space until it is absorbed by another body. It would be the case with several magical objects and places: Mouth of Torment (Abaddon's corrupt power is flowing out from such tear in the reality), the bloodstones and creatures with incredible amount of Magic/power (like Primordus). And this could somehow explain how the Riders collect/harness/absorb magic.

Actually, magic can easily seep out if it was designed to do so. I explained the bloodstones, and as said, the Ancient Dragons' and gods' usage of magic is part of my next theory. If one absorbs magic, they can only hold a certain amount, afterwhich they will either be forced to emit magic or they will be destroyed. This would be the case for energy as a whole. It is naturally impossible for an object to hold more energy than it can withstand. This is where the idea of exploding heads from (usually radiation) waves comes from. One way of thinking, is that magic is a force that can make radiation, and not "is like radiation." If you understand what I mean.

The main point: Radiation is a thing. Magic is an action of controlling things. Think of it as "an extension of the body."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I absolutely agree with Draxynnic's posts. There are some skills (like Troll Unguent, Endure Pain and Defy Pain) which don't even belong to the magical skills. The two warrior skills use stamina and the bodies' endurance ability to last longer on the battlefield. I don't know what's the trick in Troll Unguent that uses energy.

Like I said, the energy bar does hold some stamina, which makes it so much more annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

And my last thought is your question about Magic: is it infinite or not?
I would think that it is. In the case of the Ancient Dragons it seems that they have some kind of connection to the Mists. When they use magic they consume some of their powers. After this their draw more power from the Mists, to fully regain their former self.
And thus, I would think that the Mists and the Universe are infinte->infinite amount of power/magic

In a way, magic is infinite, but only because magic is not a "thing" but an "action." The "source" of magic may come from the Mists, but the Mists cannot give energy, which would include magic, or create something without spending energy. In order to spend energy, it must gain energy, thus my theory that spirits, once "destroyed" gives the Mists this energy comes into play.

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

One pet theory I have regarding this is that Rangers are actually to Ritualists as Assassins are to Mesmers and/or Necromancers, and as Dervishes are to Monks and/or Elementalists - a hybrid between physical combat and a specialised form of the magic of the full spellcasting profession. This theory is supported in part by the fact that they both share spirits (although those of Rangers come from nature rather than the afterlife) - it's possible that traps may simply be the Ranger equivalent of an attack spirit rather than mechanical traps, and the more supernatural Ranger attacks are actually a specialised form of weapon spell.

I personally disagree, though this is somewhat off-topic, and say that the Ranger's use of energy is purely, if not mostly (there most likely is some magic found) the use of stamina via putting things together. Building a trap could get tiresome. But like you said before, it would be more of things the Ranger brings and should be based on number of items, instead Anet chose energy. I view the use of energy in the stead of stamina to be purely game mechanical.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

By your opinion.

The earliest mention I know of magic in relation to physics is by Quintus (which was that magic defies physics). But do note, I said "Most that give their opinion" - this is merely an observation, and I have never once seen someone say magic is just an extension of the laws of physics.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Another way would be to have materials that have a lower density than the air, as shown by certain gases in balloons. If you just want it to float in place, it'd probably need to be a certain density, so that it will float, while not floating beyond into the sky. That aside, the problem isn't so much that it's impossible, it's that in the instances seen in Tyria there isn't anything supporting the floating structures, but there they are, floating, without any semblance of an obvious energy source in constant use, or constantly supplying the floating structures.

Which begs the question of, where is the energy coming from? Even my theory on water's magical conductivity doesn't completely explain this. Sure, when the water's falling the particles are excited, possibly irradiating the surrounding area with magical energy causing the stones to float, thus giving it a possible magical energy source. The problem, of course, being that there isn't a waterfall in sight around the Wizard's Tower.

Changing the density of an object would also work, and would probably be the "easier method" of doing such. However, doing that is also the harder to accomplish method, as if things levitate, they don't seem to lose their weight, thus it is just potential energy which is changed, not density.

As for where energy comes from, it depends on the source.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..Last I checked, it would just be by raising the kinetic energy of the atoms and molecules. As temperature in general is just the average kinetic energy of atoms and molecules within an object. In reducing the kinetic energy, an object becomes cooler, and in increasing, it becomes hotter. Unless you're meaning rearranging the atoms and molecules within the air to make a more flammable, and thus easier to ignite, gas.

It would, in essence, be either or, or both. Depends on the job at hand.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Ignoring the fact that moving and changing atoms in such a way isn't that easy at all. One of those key reasons magic is admired or desired.

Just because that is how it is done, doesn't mean the person knows they are doing such a thing. In most instances, if people think of how they want their magic done, they just think "a ball of fire" or "heal this wound" - they don't think "change the air atoms to carbon and other atoms in the human body and connect them to the skin and blood vessels and muscles of this body." I was explaining how it is done in physical sense, not a mental sense. Going any further would go into my next theory, more or less, though.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Except that we don't see anything or hear anything that suggests this. It just appears to be like walking through a doorway, in most instances. You'd think they'd take the opportunity for Vekk to mention that as a joke towards the player, "By the way, you were just torn to pieces and reassembled as you went through that gate." Alas, missed opportunities.

Kind of like above, even by use, one may not understand what is actually happening. You need to ask "how much do they know of molecules, atoms, bacteria" - my guess, very little.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Which almost seems to be the deal with the Ancient Dragons, at least in the case of Drakkar. As it did not exert any energy until it was tapped into by another source, Svanir.

As in the case of the mortal-to-God/Goddess transition.

This, unfortunately, goes into the next theory, which is going just past the line of off-topic in this thread. So, until I write it out!

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I think the word you're looking for is plasma. That's the best word to describe their matter. It's not exactly a liquid, nor a gas, but a weird sort of solid-liquid mixture.

or "ectoplasm" - Yes, I did temporarily forget of that, and yes, that would be the substance of them. Plasma, if anything, would be a "non-solid solid."

Gmr Leon · Aug 03, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Just a note, I do intend on posing my arguments..However, not now as my head's bugging me a bit.

MartynThompson · Aug 03, 2009, 06:57 AM // 06:57

magic is the use of supernatural power to make impossible things happen
"to make impossible things happen"!
this means it cant be controlled by the possible : physics

Konig Des Todes · Aug 03, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Did you even read anything? Everything we see magic do is possible. Magic is just another means of achieving what alone is impossible. It's the opposite of science, just another means of doing the same things. But it is still limited to the laws of physics.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 03, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And magic does have an existence in non-fiction in reality as well, under the name of psionics: psychic abilities.

Psychic abilities are not a form of magic. They come from advanced brain and mind functioning. A normal human uses 7-10% (I don't know the exact numbers) of his/her brain, and the major part of this efficency is to support and keep up life functions (breathing, heart-beating, hormone production, etc.). It has been suggested and theorized, that in the later parts of human evolution, the brain capacity will grow larger and larger thus these psychic abilities (other known as telekinesis) would appear. Although it's off-topic and there's no eveidence that it would really exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Think of it as "an extension of the body."

I don't think of it as "an extension fo the body". Telekinesis WOULD BE an extension of the body, or MAYBE it is.
Magic is more like the Force from Star Wars. (I'm an SW fan)
And as stated in the manuscripts:

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Originally Posted by Guild Wars Manuscripts

Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Kenobi

It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.

I know that the two universes differ from each other in a lot of things, but...
The Mists is the source of everything: good and evil, of all the matter and knowledge, so it's the source of Magic as well. You know what, I would dare to say that Magic is the extension of the Mists. And as Obi-Wan said that the Force is what binds the galaxy together. In GW Universe it's the Mists.
Just to find more link between the Force and the Mists: the Mists is the source of all evil and good. And the Force has a Dark and Light Side.
It's off-topic too, but I would like to prove my thoughts and theories about Magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

In order to spend energy, it must gain energy, thus my theory that spirits, once "destroyed" gives the Mists this energy comes into play.

Spirits are not destroyed! After they leave behind the mortal realms with the help of the Envoys, they go to the Underworld where they are judged by Grenth. The heroes go to the Hall of Heroes, and those, whose deeds were not legendary or worthy/good will be stranded on the mortal realms.
Thus, your spirit-destroying and energy-gaining idea does not fit.
There coould be two possible explanation (perhaps there's more, but I don't know)

1.) The Universe/Mists is/are infinite.

2.) It gains energy from an unknown source, which we still don't know.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 03, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Psychic abilities are not a form of magic. They come from advanced brain and mind functioning.(...) It has been suggested and theorized, that in the later parts of human evolution, the brain capacity will grow larger and larger thus these psychic abilities (other known as telekinesis) would appear.

Terribly off-topic, but tell me this: How does one control magic? Next, why don't you think of the similarities between Psionic abilities and magic. They go hand in hand, only different names and times. Magic is the term for the "unexplainable" which was only unexplainable in the past. As for the evolution part, I intend to get into that with my next theory - once I write it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I don't think of it as "an extension fo the body". Telekinesis WOULD BE an extension of the body, or MAYBE it is.
Magic is more like the Force from Star Wars.

-snip-

The Mists is the source of everything: good and evil, of all the matter and knowledge, so it's the source of Magic as well. You know what, I would dare to say that Magic is the extension of the Mists. And as Obi-Wan said that the Force is what binds the galaxy together. In GW Universe it's the Mists.
Just to find more link between the Force and the Mists: the Mists is the source of all evil and good. And the Force has a Dark and Light Side.
It's off-topic too, but I would like to prove my thoughts and theories about Magic.

The force, even moreso, can be viewed as "telekinesis" - and in fact, all form of psionic abilities can be simplified into two things: telekinesis and telepathy - if you look at magic, then you get the same things, though for GW with the exclusion of telepathy's magical equivilant - you get levitation and movement. I ask again: How do you control it? If you didn't get it yet, with the mind and will of a being. Then you can ask yourself something else: What else can the mind and will of a being control? the body. Thus, magic can be seen as an extension of the body - but more specifically, an extension of the mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Spirits are not destroyed! After they leave behind the mortal realms with the help of the Envoys, they go to the Underworld where they are judged by Grenth. The heroes go to the Hall of Heroes, and those, whose deeds were not legendary or worthy/good will be stranded on the mortal realms.
Thus, your spirit-destroying and energy-gaining idea does not fit.

You forget something. We destroy spirits in the Rift (Realm of Torment, Fissure of Woe, and Underworld to be specific). Prime examples: Shiro Tagachi and Vizier Khilbron in the Gate of Madness. Yes, they are spirits. So what happens to them? Read the spirits thread for all the possibilities.

But the most likeliest possibility is that the essence of the spirit, if/when they are destroyed, goes to the Mists and act as energy to create new things. Nothing is infinite. Nothing is unlimited. These are mere words conceived to explain the unexplainable, much like the word magic was in ages past, later renamed psionics because it had gained a theory behind it.

I know I am terribly getting off of GW now, so I'm going to leave it at that. Thalador, I'll be more than happy to continue the non-gw related things in PM (such as the relation between psionics and magic), but not in the thread anymore.

Shasgaliel · Aug 03, 2009, 12:25 PM // 12:25

There is a book called "physics of impossible". Even appearance of ghosts can be described by the quantum theory equations. Magic indeed seems to be a way of transforming energy which is all around. Interesting thoughts OP.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 03, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Meh, Quantum Physics is just attempts to explain the unexplainable, which, by explaining how magic would work, I have explained it, thus it is explainable and has no true place in Quantum Physics in terms of it's existence. The part which does, however, is why it can be used, but that is left more for psychology than anything else. But meh, off-topic.